01:31 *GAVEL* 01:32 hey OF 01:39 [item 1, opening] This meeting of the Board of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., is called to order. 01:39 PLEASE NOTE: Our agenda for today, AND all the resolutions and minutes we will be voting on, are online at: 01:39 http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/agenda/ 01:39 [item 2, roll call] Board members, please state your name for the record. Others present may /msg cdlu with your full name if you wish to be listed in the records. 01:39 We have 9 board members, so quorum for today is 6. 01:44 We have regrets from Jimmy today. 01:47 Branden Robinson 01:50 David Graham 01:50 John Goerzen 01:56 Martin Schulze 02:10 Bdale, mako? 02:43 Now that I've met Joey in person, and even slept in the same room as he has, I can confidently say he's not nearly as perverse in real life as he is in IRC. I guess we'll never know why he won't speak his own name at these meetings. :) 02:53 * Overfiend grins at Joey 03:03 Overfiend, heh 03:14 Overfiend: careful, you might not be allowed to sleep in the same room down south ;-) 03:34 CosmicRay: I was going to make a similar joke involing Ean Schuessler... 03:38 heh 03:42 Overfiend: You don't know me. 03:50 Joey: I do a little bit! :) 03:54 sigh. holding at 4... 03:55 No. 03:57 CosmicRay, we can attempt to carry on with the meeting... if we get to a vote we can come back to it 04:03 Joey: not even? 04:20 cdlu: I guess we could. shall we? 04:30 can't lose anything by trying 04:35 diziet's second unexcused 04:37 cdlu: Do have any meeting minutes ready to be posted to the website? 04:42 ok. 04:47 It looks kinda, uh, bad to not have any items since April or so 04:56 the agenda is.. um... strange... 05:01 Is there an agenda? 05:03 Overfiend, actually, yeah, a few. I haven't sent a big update to -announce I need to send, because I haven't prepared it, because, well. No because. 05:08 Joey, yes. 05:08 Joey: it's the 9/20 one 05:32 yes 05:34 mako! 05:34 CosmicRay: Oh... still... 05:41 five! 05:43 one more, if we can muster it 05:46 Benjamin Mako Hill 05:49 cdlu: please start 05:51 CosmicRay: please report 05:51 bdale is orbiting near by 05:54 ok, we can start with the agenda anyway... 05:54 Bdale 05:57 hot damn 05:58 quorum! 06:00 all right! 06:03 [item 3, president's update] 06:03 Nothing to report this month that won't be covered under other items. 06:03 [item 4, treasurer's report] Jimmy sent the report to us. Is there any discussion? 06:09 this meeting, now under way for 2 weeks and 6 minutes, is now under way :) 06:24 CosmicRay: just a couple of things to mention 06:32 ok 06:41 CosmicRay: If the Board hasn't yet read it, I ask them to please read my update re: Frank Boardman from MBS 06:45 mailed yesterday 06:56 got it, informative, thanks. 07:03 also, I uh, had a separate envelope of August donations that I hadn't deposited 07:05 so I'll be making 2 deposites shortly 07:10 more August, and all of September 07:24 I was confused because I had the usual amount of money for a month in August before 07:30 so actually, donations are up 07:52 Overfiend, the money from linuxfund.org is flowing? 08:03 Also, MBS has sent us a bill for, IIRC $240 (2 hrs @ $120/hr) 08:12 I think this goes beyond Jimmy's budget. 08:15 * Joey was happy to read it. 08:16 I suggest payint it. 08:33 Overfiend, his budget was "anything reasonably necessary" to get our books in order, iirc. 08:34 Overfiend: yes, please ;-) 08:34 cdlu: Yes. They usually disburse at the butt end of the month, so I haven't gotten September's yet. 08:42 ok 08:44 cdlu: acknowledged. I'll just pay it, then. 09:04 Overfiend: if we're operating on cash basis, it doesn't really matter when they do it, the money is ours when it's ours 09:04 * mako nods to cdlu, Overfiend 09:07 Microsoft never did get back to us about their Matching Gifts program. 09:23 Overfiend, how about Mr. Lynch with our decade-old donations he found? :) 09:24 Overfiend: i should have asked them when i was up there last week ;) 09:42 cdlu: lemme check my inbox, but I still hadn't heard anything, hence my ping of him yesterday 09:50 bdale: acknowledged, I'm just...meticulous I guess 09:50 right, I was wondering if he'd responded to that 10:03 are we going to do anything about the request from someone to give us something from a grant? 10:06 oh, yeah 10:14 cdlu: I got a vacation message, and bounced ti to the board. 10:18 s/ti/to/ 10:21 CosmicRay: that's the one where they needed a deliverable? 10:26 right 10:28 oh right 10:38 CosmicRay: I would rather have Greg look at that first, I'm a bit nervous. 10:45 I can send them a sorry-we-cant-do-that letter if need be 10:54 didn't he already say he was nervous about it too? 10:54 I mean, he *has*, sort of. 10:57 Yes, he did 11:02 Message-ID: 11:22 I'd go up there and teach a seminar if they'd pay my expenses :) 11:24 I'd thank them for wanting to be generous and decline, personally. 12:05 is there consensus on that? if so, I'll send them a note 12:21 cdlu: anyway, I'll pester Mr. Lynch again on, uh, Monday the 10th I guess. 12:28 Let him have Friday to catch up on his mail. 12:43 Overfiend, sounds good. I guess we'll commission Ean to write apologies to those donations, too. :) 12:47 * Overfiend moves to do as CR and bdale suggested. 12:59 ok, I'll do that then. 13:12 are we done with the treasurer's report? 13:13 cdlu: bwa ha. Nah, he wouldn't enjoy that this time. He can't be (justfifiably) mad at me while doing it :) 13:37 CosmicRay ,I think so. 13:41 [item 5, outstanding minutes] None to vote on. Any discussion? 13:48 PLEASE PUT THEM UP ON THE WEBSITE 13:54 Overfiend, yessir. 14:06 the resolutions page too 14:06 thank you, that fulfills my yelling quota for the meeting. 14:09 heh 14:19 Overfiend, phew. I got off easy. I've seen what you can do. :) 14:24 ok, anything else on this topic? 14:33 cdlu: hey, I'm a sweetheart these days 14:38 cdlu: try /nick sanders someday 14:43 you mean /nick cas 14:52 yeah 14:55 [item 6, tax filing/bookkeeping status] Mako/Jimmy/Branden, you have the floor. 15:05 now don't speak all at once... 15:09 I guess we talked about this a bit 15:12 I don't have anything to offer beyond what I already said during the Treasurer's report. 15:12 anything else to cover? 15:13 i haven't actually been involved in this recently 15:18 so nothing from my end 15:26 i also no longer live in new york city 15:33 mako, where do you now live? 15:36 Beantown 15:37 boston 15:43 i started at the mit media lab 15:50 No, you stahhhted 15:58 and eat lots of lobstah! 15:59 bah :) 15:59 mako, cool, good to know. You'll be within range of me meeting you when I visit my inlaws. :) 16:09 cdlu: excellent 16:09 mako: which one? there are many bahs in Bahstan 16:14 oh that sounds great. mixing of inlaws with spi. 16:18 i am going to NYC pretty frequently 16:25 [item 6, DCC issues] Mako, you have the floor. 16:27 ever 3 weeks it seems 16:28 OH yeah 16:30 anyway, moving on... 16:30 wait wait 16:31 one more item 16:33 ok 16:35 MBS item 16:37 Just FYI. 16:54 Frank asked for, and I gave him, the username and password to the FirstIB website for our account. 16:58 It's part of the relationship. 17:03 ok. 17:06 good to know, thanks. 17:12 that's all 17:20 ok. on to DCC then. 17:49 i haven't been actively involved since the delegation went to don 17:55 dondelelcaro: are you aroun? 18:02 * dondelelcaro waves 18:04 ah, excellent. 18:11 feel free to fill us in on 18:17 ... err, everything 18:27 uh, damn, either Ian's confused or I am 18:29 dondelelcaro: is there anything you can/want to say about the DCC mark issues? 18:36 * bdale is a close observer, too 18:39 OF, ? 18:42 I just spoke with Ian this morning and he said the http://www.dccalliance.org/ site has a disclaimer on the front page 18:48 he said it has for a couple of weeks now 18:50 but I don't see one 18:54 basically, the story is that DCC is moving slowly; I should have an announcement about it shortly.... unless they've already made a move. 19:18 dondelelcaro: have you talked to Meskes about the sub-project effort yet? 19:19 imurdock told me that they've decided to make "DCC" a recursive acronym for "DCC Common Core" 19:39 of course, even after this is official (it may be already), the press continues to screw it up 19:51 Overfiend: well, that's understandable 19:59 and not only because the press ALWAYS screws this up :) 20:01 http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2005092901526NWDBSW 20:04 things up even 20:08 * bdale points at http://alioth.debian.org/projects/d-enterprise/ 20:13 bdale: he's mentioned it, but I don't really have much to do with whether or not they become a sub project... 20:23 yeah, tell me about it. I've now been quoted completely inaccurately on CNet 20:38 dondelelcaro: my point is that it's happening, and it might affect their use of the mark 20:40 Overfiend: i don't think i've every been quoted accurately and in appropriate context 20:41 Apparently I have opinions about the defensibility of the Linux trademark. News to me. 20:43 * Hydroxide is stupidly missing class for not-very-good reasons unrelated to SPI, but as long as I happen to be here -- hi guys 20:49 excellent 20:57 you haven't missed any voted 20:57 votes. 21:08 ok 21:30 Hydroxide: anything you want to say about Treasurer/bookkeeping/accounting stuff after we're done with the DCC/trademark item? 21:30 it sounds like there is no action that SPI needs to be taking at this time 21:34 is that correct? 21:41 CosmicRay, want to vote to approve treasurer's report? 21:46 bdale: for the sub project; but a non-related commercial entity (which is what I assume the DCC will continue to be) still has issues... 21:54 I think SPI is taking action through its member project Debian, in the form of Don Armstrong. 21:58 anyway; yes... there's basically nothing to report at this time. 22:00 Overfiend: I've said everything I have to say about those issues already 22:00 cdlu: oh yeah. we'll come back to that in a minute, thanks. 22:03 Overfiend: ok. 22:14 Don is in negotiations with the alleged infringer and it is clear we take Debian's mark seriously. 22:28 dondelelcaro: I understand. just want to make sure you remain aware of the actions and are thinking about how that might affect the overall picture 22:39 all right. we can note that in the minutes and leave it at then, I guess. 22:39 regarding the DCC/trademark issues, we do need to ensure for legal enforceability reasons that the press stops calling them the Debian Common Core Alliance once they are officially no longer called that 22:42 bdale: cool; yeah. 22:47 if debian decides to offer a license, i'd be happy to get involved again with greg to help get an agreement i think we can live with 22:49 since it is causing consumer confusion about the relationship 22:58 That Don has not launched air strikes on DCC Alliance member companies should not be interpreted as a failure to defend the mark. 23:11 Hydroxide: er, isn't it hard to tell the press anything? 23:15 Hydroxide: right; I've suggested that they issue a press release to that effect; Debian itself can always issue one if the press continues to screw it up. 23:18 I mean, and have them listen? 23:19 Overfiend, depends who you talk to :) 23:31 * CosmicRay points out that cdlu is a member of the press 23:32 Overfiend: you can tell 'em what you want, the hard part is getting them to listen+understand... 24:05 dondelelcaro, Overfiend: I might suggest that Debian and DCCA issue a joint press release to clarify the relationship and naming, and we and DCCA can also send clarificational corrections to the major tech sites that keep making the mistakes 24:48 Sounds like a good idea to me, but I've delegated decision-making authority on this to Don. At least as DPL. As an SPI Board member, I guess I kinda retain some authority. 24:55 * Overfiend tips over from all the hats piled up on his head. 24:58 heh 25:18 well, don is reading this so he can take it as a suggestion 25:21 yeah. 25:24 Hydroxide: that's a good idea... pretty much along the lines of what I've been suggesting to Ian... anyway; my first job is to resolve the trademark issue itself, then later tackle the ramifications of the infringement 25:37 are we ready to move on to the next topic then? 25:46 * Hydroxide thinks so 25:51 [item 6, OFTC elections] cdlu, you have the floor. 25:52 dondelelcaro: I suggest asking the DCCA to add whatever disclaimer of affiliation with Debian imurdock thinks is already present to the *front page* of their website. 25:57 I wasn't done. :-P 25:58 Now I am. 26:05 CosmicRay, ok. 26:06 Overfiend: heh 26:14 OFTC's elections are coming up on the 8th. I believe that's Friday. 26:27 saturday 26:28 Last election, we ran the election off SPI's servers with software written by, I think, weasel... 26:29 no, that's Saturday 26:30 ok 26:51 We'd need to reactive that and have a non-OFTC affiliated SPI person keep an eye on elections. 26:59 that disqualifies both me and Hydroxide. 27:01 any volunteers? :) 27:08 what's Hydroxide's affiliation? 27:20 perhaps wiggy or weasel would be willing to do both? 27:26 Overfiend, he's a member of OFTC's staff 27:30 cdlu: oh ah. 27:32 I don't think I qualify either :) 27:41 CosmicRay, weasel is not qualified either.. he is on the core committee 27:53 oh right. 27:55 CosmicRay, wiggy ran it last time, with the help of mako, I believe. 27:58 Let's make Diziet do it, as punishment for 2 unregretted absences. 28:10 Overfiend, he made it last time... 28:13 i was just a rubber stamp :) 28:41 sorry about that 28:46 cdlu: I didn't say "in a row" :) 28:56 someone query me the last few lines for the meeting log please? :) 29:21 you didn't miss anything important 29:26 can we get wiggy to do this? 29:37 oh, but you're the minutes man 29:43 Overfiend, we can't volunteer him if that's what you mean 29:49 I got the log for the record 29:58 thanks everyone who sent it :) 30:03 * cdlu applies fire extinguisher 30:09 ok 30:13 heh 30:21 No, I mean, does anyone have reason to believe wiggy would be willing? 30:33 well, let's ask him. 30:36 Overfiend, I'm sure he'd be willing if we ask him a month ago. 30:41 giving anyone 3 days notice is tight 30:43 :) 30:53 thus why it was on the agenda for the original timeslot for this meeting some ... two weeks ago :) 30:56 I really can't take it on, I'm behind on about 20 things as it is. 31:05 >wiggy< question is coming up during our meeting: any chance you'd be willing to operate the SPI voting software for OFTC's election in Saturday? 31:24 do we have a fallback plan if he says no? 31:25 go, President, actually asking him and stuff. 31:40 CosmicRay, also for the record, the current chair of OFTC is ElectricElf and he would be responsible for coordinating any volunteers. At this point, I'm just the messenger. 31:42 do we NEED a fallback? 31:58 well, if wiggy says no, somebody still has to do it, right? 32:08 we can get volunteers to do a hand-count on mailed in ballots if worse comes to worst. 32:09 I was asking more whether we need 2. 32:15 * Hydroxide notes, reading scrollback, that the August 2005 treasurer's report was not actually approved, and is confused about what the relationship is between the $240 MBS bill and the $1000 MBS retainer. To be discussed after the OFTC thing, probably. 32:35 we could ask manoj if he would be willing and delegate to him 32:35 Hydroxide: ok, we'll get to those in a bit, thanks. 32:55 Joey: Manoj would probably only run devotee, which is a slightly different voting method. 33:11 Joey: what wiggy implemented was very strict Condorcet Cloneproof/SSD 33:32 Joey: what Debian uses is hacked up a little bit in ways that, we are assured, do not compromise its mathematical rigor 33:37 SPI's elections do not use Condorcet... we use straight Borda. 33:43 cdlu: no we don't. 33:43 sorry, OFTC's 33:49 oha h 34:11 Borda definitely has inferiorities relative to Condorcet, but this is certainly not the place for that discussion as regards OFTC. 34:13 (Debian adds explicit tie votes and "none of the above" to Condorcet Cloneproof/SSD) 34:16 Agreed. 34:38 ok, do we have a real plan coming out of all of this? :-) 34:43 * CosmicRay notes wiggy hasn't replied yet 34:47 Hydroxide, OFTC's needs are different from SPI's and Debian's. Due to the fact that all candidates vote for all candidates for all posititions, Borda is a far superior solution. 34:58 I think we need to punt on it and beg for help. 35:14 or ask OFTC to delay their elections. 35:17 with our apologies. 35:18 Overfiend, to put it simply, if this is deferred to beyond meeting, nothing will happen. 35:26 Overfiend: Not gonna happen, but we can probably arrange for it ourselves 35:31 balls. 35:41 And the OFTC constitution has no accounting for delays, but also does not require SPI to handle them. We do that for openness reasons. 35:47 Overfiend: Would it be possible for SPI to receive/record the votes and forward them to vote-counters? Can be entirely automatic 35:59 ah, EE, hi. 36:03 EE: I've never done *any* kind of admin work on SPI boxen. 36:04 * cdlu lets him do all the talking :) 36:17 Overfiend: (That way, you guys don't need to put in a huge amount of effort, but SPI would still be available if there was a conflict. None is expected though.) 36:20 Overfiend: Who does? 36:25 I don't have root, I don't know where the voting software is or what lang it's written in, and I don't know what MTA we use. 36:29 noone currently on board, afaik. 36:32 wiggy and joy, afaik. 36:33 EE: Joy and Wiigy 36:34 Okay 36:38 I'll get in touch with them 36:44 We're talking about MTA-only stuff here 36:45 Nothing fancy 36:48 CosmicRay: Do we need to put out a call for new admins? 36:53 Is the Board happy enough with that, though? 36:57 ElectricElf: don't ask me to do MTA config, I *always* fuck it up 37:03 Overfiend: might not hurt, but it would probably be polite to ask them first 37:03 (Assuming we can get an admin on it ;) 37:08 ElectricElf: that is fine with me. 37:09 as lurkers in #d-d can tell you every time I need to change it 37:11 CosmicRay: Thanks 37:20 last time I needed to make a change it took me 9 iterations 37:23 cdlu: Acceptable? 37:23 hah 37:32 ElectricElf, works for me. 37:35 cdlu: (You being on both board-equivalents... :) 37:37 Rightey-o 37:39 That's settled 37:41 Thanks folks :) 37:52 ok, cool. always like it when someone volunteers to take care of things ;-) 37:56 * Overfiend extends OFTC his apologies for us not being on the ball 38:07 Overfiend: We're not either 38:09 Overfiend: Bit sad frankly 38:13 Overfiend: Anyways, think nothing of it 38:18 Overfiend, aw hell, this is SO much better than a couple of years ago. :) 38:19 now, back to treasurer reports then? 38:26 cdlu: True. 38:49 CosmicRay: sounds good 38:50 CosmicRay: Okay by me. 39:09 Jimmy, you were saying we never approved a report. Was that the report delivered in september that should have been voted on 9/20, or something else? 39:19 CosmicRay, this is the September meeting :) 39:19 because this is really the 9/20 meeting ;-) 39:27 CosmicRay, I reminded you about 15 minutes ago that we needed to vote on it :) 39:45 cdlu: I know, what I'm talking about it 39:47 * Hydroxide notes, reading scrollback, that the August 2005 treasurer's report was not actually approved, and is confused about what the relationship is between the $240 MBS bill and the $1000 MBS retainer. To be discussed after the OFTC thing, probably. 39:50 s/it/is/ 39:58 The report *for* August was issued in September. 40:02 yeah, that's what I'm referring to 40:10 We don't know what August's numbers are until the month has ended. 40:15 the report for august is what we were discussing and need to vote on today. the other part, I'll let Jimmy explain. 40:16 ok. just double checking that you meant the report covering august, not the one issued in august. 40:26 it right 40:28 in that case, are we ready to vote on that august 2005 report? 40:41 me speak english 40:46 Hydroxide: Jimmy, did you catch that not *all* deposits from August have been made? 40:56 I hosed up and made two envelopes absent-mindedly. 41:05 Overfiend: the way I've been accounting, I count donations in the month when they are deposited, as I've been saying in every report 41:14 Just wanted to let you know 41:14 Overfiend: precisely because of things like that 41:17 Hydroxide: good. that's the way it should be done. 41:18 bdale corrected me the same way :) 41:19 Overfiend: I did see that 41:22 okay. 41:25 * Overfiend shuts up for a few seconds. 41:32 shall we vote then? 41:39 sure 41:44 this vote is to approve the August 2005 treasurer report. 41:47 !vote start 41:48 !vote yes 41:49 !vote yes 41:50 !vote yes 41:51 !vote yes 41:53 !vote yes 41:56 no bot. 41:57 cdlu: hello, votebot ;-) 41:59 !summon votebot 42:04 !vote yes 42:11 !vote yes 42:16 sorry, someone walked in 42:18 that looks like everyone 42:21 approved! 42:23 !vote stop 42:38 Hydroxide: What quarterly AmEx Fin Adv statements are you missing from e? 42:42 I will batch 'em and fax 'em. 42:42 ok, now the question about the MBS fee? 43:03 Overfiend: I haven't received one for Q2 2005 43:12 So, April 15 to July 15. Okay. 43:26 CosmicRay: yeah. Overfiend said they billed for $240, but I definitely gave them a $1000 retainer check, which they cashed 43:35 I'm not sure fees come out of a retainer. 43:38 so I'm wondering if that is somehow not covered by the retainer 43:45 what does? 43:50 Hydroxide: could you ask them directly? 43:53 I don't honestly know what "retainer" means in great detail. 44:01 It's more than just a "deposit", apparently. 44:07 it was in the letter of engagement. I probably have a copy of it somewhere 44:09 well, it could just be a deposit 44:15 I'd assume it's like a deposit, that covers bills we fail to pay. Like a rent deposit. 44:21 right 44:22 CosmicRay: they sent us a bill 44:27 I don't know either really. 44:27 showing a balance due 44:35 right. 44:36 want to call and ask? 44:39 I'd say pay it, and ask them. 44:40 sure 44:42 that suggests to me that they didn't just chomp it out of the deposit. 44:46 ok. I'm sure we'll ring up more than $1240 of total charges in our time with them, so there's no reason not to pay it 44:56 Agreed. I've got the paper statement so I'll pay it. 45:03 CR, fyi I run out of time in 15 minutes. 45:04 Overfiend: right. I suspect it's a deposit that we'd get back when we terminate our relationship with them. 45:05 cdlu: that's not what a retainer is 45:11 so yeah, pay it and ask them. I'll also try to look for the letter of engagement, since it probably specifies 45:16 bdale: do enlighten us 45:28 Overfiend: I think it's more a CYA thing for them, so if we fail to pay some bills, they limit their losses. 45:39 but again, I'm just guessing. 45:40 a retainer is a fee that you pay for the priveledge of having them represent you or do work for you, it is independent of billings for specific work done 46:06 right, like a lawyer being retained means you pay him to kick around. Makes sense. 46:25 well...for a lawyer, the retainer establishes an attorney-client relationship, at least 46:40 cdlu: if you pay a lawyer a retainer, then you get to say that lawyer is representing you. if the lawyer does any work for you, he bills you for that directly. 46:41 which means privilege attaches to your discussions as opposed to him chatting with you over hot dogs 46:46 well, I'll still check to see what was specifically said in the letter of engagement, but I see no reason not to pay it 46:51